Episode transcript
Jade Hanley
Welcome back to Wild Swim Podcast!
In this episode I’m speaking to composer, performer, author and (of course!) swimmer, Kerry Andrew. Kerry is an award winning composer specialising in experimental vocal and choral music, and also performs in an alt-folk band, “You Are Wolf”. Kerry was shortlisted for the BBC National Short Story Award and was an Alpine Fellowship Writing prize winner. Kerry’s first novel “Swansong” was published in 2018. Kerry’s second novel “SKIN” is available now.
SKIN follows the journey of 11 year old Matty. Joe, father to Matty, has disappeared and no one will explain where he’s gone or why. I love the way that swimming is woven into Matty’s story, which is set around both the legendary Hampstead Heath Ponds and the Loughs of Ireland and was inspired by Kerry’s own swimming adventures. This is a book that’s clearly been written by someone who loves swimming.
Hi, Kerry, welcome to Wild Swim Podcast.
Kerry Andrew
Hello, thank you so much for having me.
Jade Hanley
Tell me about how you got started with outdoor swimming, like what’s the story there?
Kerry Andrew
Sure. It was my husband actually. My husband Andy because he read Roger Deakin’s book Waterlog and then started swimming at the lido, at Brockwell Lido. I live in South London and that’s just a mile down the hill from where we live. And not long after that, the exact same thing happened to me, I read Roger Deakin’s book Waterlog, the swimming Odyssey through the British Isles, and immediately felt the need to swim outdoors having never been to the lido before. And that was just the start of something very magical. Yeah, I ended up swimming at the lido for quite a few years. And started swimming through the winter. And then alongside that just got this thirst to swim in other bodies of water that don’t have chlorine, in rivers and lakes and the occasional bit of the sea as well. And it’s just became, I wouldn’t say an addiction because that sounds unhealthy, but just a really beautiful part of my world and often my husband’s world. So we’d often go go looking for swimming spots together. I also found a few friends who also like jumping in rivers and you know, it’s always a pleasure to swim with them as well. And so I just found myself very often in my life as a mostly as a freelance musician, and often travelling around the country just often looking for, you know, a recommended nearish place to swim and going there and that being, yeah, just just part of my life. My life kind of expanded a bit really once I started swimming outside I think.
Jade Hanley
I like that both you and your husband were inspired by a book. Because obviously you’re here today to talk a bit about SKIN. So yeah, maybe tell me about SKIN. What’s it about? What made you want to write that novel?
Kerry Andrew
Sure. So SKIN is my second novel. The first one is called Swansong. As a musician, I’m especially interested in folklore and mythology especially from the British Isles, but not exclusively. Part of my work as a musician has always been in trying to do something new with old folk songs or making original music with folk stories. And in my first book Swansong I expressly took this folk ballad, called Molly Vaughn and wrote a kind of contemporary response, slash sort of absorption of it. And when thinking about a second book, I wanted still to draw on folklore but not in such an explicit way. I just still wanted to kind of dabble a little bit so it was that that idea that I definitely, you know, that just sort of makes me come alive a little bit creatively looking at old stories, however old and just trying to do something fresh and contemporary with them. And as I was thinking about writing the second book, I began this process of getting really into swimming outdoors. And so I just knew that my second book, I wanted to have lots of outdoor swimming, wild swimming. So my musical life and my much more recent writing life as a professional writer, has come a lot later, have often or at least in the initial stages kind of thematically, kind of like swum alongside each other. So I knew I wanted to have something that had a lot of swimming. I mean, really, you know, almost just the ridiculous reason of just wanting to research and get to go swimming a lot. And find new places to swim, you know. And so, I think, I think I’m going to talk about my husband a lot probably because he’s, you know had an important… he’s played an important part of the wild swimming part of my life, we were at Hampstead ponds or either walking there and walking back and I was just talking about ideas for the second book and it just kind of seemed right we’re talking about mermaids and, and the ponds and it seemed like there was something there that I might be able to use. I might be able to just set something at the ponds, but maybe somewhere else as well. So it’s absolutely about sort of setting and theme first, and I’ll tell you a bit about the basic story. So the book is in two parts. The first part is set in 1985. And my protagonist is called Matty is just 11. And the very first sentence of the book is that Matty’s dad who’s called Joe has gone missing. And the last place that he was seen was Hampstead men’s pond, which is not somewhere that it was known that he went, and Matty, it’s quite mysterious. Matty’s mum Rosa is acting quite strangely about him being missing. She’s very angry, but it’s just not quite clear what’s going on and Matty wants to investigate and so goes looking for Joe and starts at the pond and having never been there before or really swim outdoors before, Matty is kind of introduced to this world of water in a very welcoming community. And it’s that that kind of then stays with Matty as the sort of beginning of Matty being really interested in swimming and being a wild swimmer and outdoor swimmer. And in the second part of the book, Matty is about 25. It’s set in 1999, at the tail end of 1999. And Joe has still not turned up, hasn’t been found and the quest kind of continues in a slightly different way in Ireland, and Matty decides to go to Ireland, gets a camper van and decided to drive through Ireland doing an awful lot of swimming and following the trail left behind by Joe. So it’s a kind of quest for family and a quest for this missing father. But in a setting that involves an awful lot of outdoor water!
Jade Hanley
So was there anything in particular about swimming? Obviously, you’ve spoken about how much you loved it and I guess you yourself kind of travel around and go swimming in different places. What was it about swimming that made you want to include that in the book because I don’t know I kind of feel like writing about the experiences of swimming must be quite difficult because such a physical thing.
Kerry Andrew
I’m not sure I did find it difficult. I think I just found it like a great task, you know, like just an extra thing for an extra excuse for me to swim in different places and really try and articulate how it feels. I mean, you’re right, that there’s only so many words that can describe sensations. But one of the themes I was really thinking about in SKIN is an idea of permeability of borders and binaries. So that in terms of gender, there’s sort of truth and reality, the simple sort of the border between 1999 and 2000, being a sort of big deal in the millennium bug and all this sort of build up to that and also between water and air and water and land. So I was I was kind of thinking about all of those things. And for my protagonist, Matty, water is this different space sort of lovely liminal interesting space to be in which feels very welcoming. It was just sort of important part of Matty’s world really, because for reasons that might become clear when you read the book, the human world and the world of feet on the ground is not always super welcoming. And water provides often always in the book, but often so place of of Haven really,
Jade Hanley
Yeah, that was definitely something that I picked up on when I read the book, that kind of being in the water is where sort of Matty felt most at peace. And I guess I could – maybe a different way – but I could relate to that. Like, I wouldn’t normally walk around with as few clothes on as you tend to do when you’re swimming. But then in the water, that kind of thing feels okay. And so that’s sort of helped me accept some of the things that I dislike about my own body.
Kerry Andrew
I hear that completely. Yeah. And I, I’m not sure I’ve thought about that so consciously, but I think I think you’re completely right. Yeah, definitely. For me, actually, for me, I think I found that swimming and just, you know, the lido weather changing rooms and the Hampstead ponds where there are changing rooms but also elsewhere when you’re just changing the bank of a river or something. I think that just helped me I didn’t really mind being seen in my swimming costume out of the water it just sort of kind of freed me up a bit but you’re absolutely right. That I hear that that you know being in the water is a place where yeah, no one’s looking at your body in the water doesn’t flipping care. And that’s definitely relevant for Matty who has a complicated relationship with the body and yeah, waters this, this space, I suppose it kind of conceals, but it kind of it kind of welcomes I think as well.
I just realised that I didn’t say having waffled about folklore at the beginning that there’s a lot of I touched on a lot of folk stories throughout the book, but nothing’s super explicit. I just had this idea of I read it read around a lot of water, folklore and reading about the obvious mermaids and the Irish version which is merrows, but also selkies and silkies and water sprites and different British and mostly British and Northern European myths and folklore and I just had all this research and then I had this story, which didn’t really come out the research not really but then it was like that the folkloric stories just kind of fed in and just occasionally just kind of seeped in and took the story a little bit further along if that makes sense.
Jade Hanley
Maybe it relates to the water as well, but there’s a kind of mysterious quality.
Kerry Andrew
And I think what I wanted to have in the book was the Yeah, the sense of water. Being Yeah, mysterious and sort of potentially sort of supernatural, and quite a powerful effect in different ways. And as I said, you know, we’re talking mostly, as I’m sure you do a lot on the podcast about water being a really welcoming place, but actually that’s really challenged in the book as well, about two thirds of the way through, where Matty is not able to go in the water after having this brilliant relationship with it. It’s become related to a very dangerous situation that Matty is in. And so there’s there’s a sort of challenge to that most important relationship in the book, I think, which is between Matty and water.
Jade Hanley
Yeah, I thought that was really interesting and I also really liked the way that you incorporated some of the, I guess, safety messages and things in a way that sort of it was really in keeping and not kind of, I don’t know, lectury or something like that. It was it was nice to read those kinds of reminders about cold water and, and those kinds of things that less experienced members may not be so aware of.
Kerry Andrew
Oh, that’s interesting. Yeah, I definitely didn’t write those in thinking of them as little little flag posts. But you’re right that you know, if you don’t, if you don’t know anything about cold water swimming, then you know those things need to be known. I think for me, I think it’s just part of the culture is something that I do think about or, or have thought about all the time when swimming anywhere outdoors that is unknown. You do have to be careful and think about those things. Yeah, so I think those those kind of things about you know, what the cold water might do to you normally and what to think about what to look for in terms of get in and get out there. They’re all in there, hopefully, quite naturally, because they’re just, they’re just part of the language when you’re looking at these, these bodies of water, I think And so as part of Matty’s thought processes quite naturally.
Jade Hanley
Yeah. And what was it about the Hampstead Heath ponds and the loughs of Ireland that drew you into them for this book?
Kerry Andrew
I think how the Hampstead ponds are really magical, you know, they’re the the wildest places to swim in London, which is where I live. I think I wanted to write a little bit of London because I lived here, although it’s the other end with South and that’s quite North. I just find the Hampstead ponds the magical especially for me, the ladies pond, because it’s really surrounded by trees it feels for those that haven’t been there. It feels for me at least quite bohemian and quite fairy tale really, you know something I’m into this sort of slightly mystical kind of property to it somehow. But the mixed pond which I’ve also swimming, you know has a bit of has some charm as well and I just love the feel of the water there. Yeah, so I just feel that Hampstead ponds have a bit of magic and as Matty does as an 11 year old in the book, my husband and I did bust into the ladies pond one night, and we’re not alone, because it’s quite common. And that was really magical. To get to go there at about 10pm and on a very hot summer’s night. It just feel super magical there and it just seemed like a good place to to introduce Matty to some while the wildest water possible in North London.
And Ireland for the second half of the book. Well, quite honestly, I was talking to my then editor, wonderful poet and writer, Robin Robertson, who was also the editor at Jonathan Cape at that time and was talking about my ideas for this. My initial ideas for this book, and saying that I wanted the second half to be somewhere else outside London. And I just really love green and grey, you know, who sort of green grey rainy places and he said, Oh, do you know the central part of Ireland of the island of Ireland? And I didn’t and when I went home after that meeting, I looked at the map and it’s just if you don’t know Ireland, it’s nice, and you like swimming, it’s really good to look at where the water is. So sort of in the middle and going northwards there’s all these diamonds or you know, lovely shapes of water going through the central part of Ireland. I think it was a spine and then it kind of slightly winds off to the left a little bit. And I just looked at that map and thought, Yeah, Ireland! which I didn’t know very well and have since visited about four times or for the book. And so it was just an excuse again, as I say to to go and discover it a new place to swim and I my first trip was with my mum and we sort of drove around Ireland and she would stand at the side while I usually put my wetsuit on or put some gloves and gloves and socks on because it was November or December. And I would just have a really little swim and then just furiously write some notes and and then some other times I went back on my own and yeah just spent time there just getting to know the area and getting to know the water as much as I could. Yeah, and just the wove it all into the book.
Jade Hanley
I guess I’m quite jealous. I think of that. You could use your work to kind of do some more swimming. That sounds pretty awesome.
Kerry Andrew
Kind of like, it’s like a part holiday part work which is great by me. Yeah.
Jade Hanley
I was wondering, you blank out the names of the loughs in Ireland. Why is that?
Kerry Andrew
It’s not very glamorous or interesting reason. I don’t think really I just wanted them to feel ambiguous. I I very carefully charted Matty journey. So you know I had a big map of Ireland on my wall and a calendar of six weeks at the end of 1999. And would work out exactly where Matty was. I mean, to be fair, you can actually drive through Ireland in you know, like a day, but I just decided that Matty would really take time over it and to spend a lot of time in the loughs rather than focusing on the quest. But yeah, I kind of plotted it really carefully. But I, I didn’t want any reader to sort of if they knew Ireland, to really be kind of really thinking about it, or someone who didn’t know Ireland to really go and look at where those things were because it’s not really important. So it was just just to introduce some ambiguity really so that people didn’t get too fixated on exactly where Matty was at any one time, but there’s still a general sense of direction that Matty is going in through the country.
Jade Hanley
I thought it was interesting because it kind of tied in for me with the kind of folklore and the myths and things that you talked about before it sort of made them feel a bit unreal, made you think, or does this place actually exist?
Kerry Andrew
I love that! You know, that’s what’s so great about talking to anyone about your book, if it’s talking to readers about your book is that there’s always so many different interesting interpretations, and things that make the author seem much more clever than they actually are! Because yeah, that definitely wasn’t conscious, but actually that that’s lovely. Yeah, I really like that, that you’re not you know, that Matty’s in a lough, but it’s not this specific geography and any, you know, anything that anyone might know about that area and relate to it just Yeah, it kind of, yeah, maybe it’s one of those sort of going over the borders a little bit between between reality and fiction.
Jade Hanley
You could have that one.
Kerry Andrew
Thanks!
Jade Hanley
So it sounds like you’ve had some pretty awesome swimming experiences in researching for the book. Where’s your dream swims? Have you got one?
Kerry Andrew
Well, yes, I think I have. I have many and my dream swims of places I would like to go back to. And the reason is because in the very end of 2018, beginning of 2019, I became extremely ill with chronic fatigue syndrome and resulting really severe mental health difficulties, anxiety, depression, other stuff. And since then, have just been on a really really long and slow recovery journey. I had a couple of years of really not being able to do anything being incredibly immobile. Having to be really looked after my by my hero swimmer husband. And in the last year with finally some NHS help I’ve made some decent improvements in my physical health, but I’m, I’m currently at about 30% of my previous capacity in terms of energy. And so mostly because of my health, I wasn’t able to swim and then that was compounded by the pandemic and it just being so hard to you know, just drop into a swimming pool and just, you know, float about for a bit to start improving my physical health in that way. I felt really frustrated. I mean, this, what are we in now? 22 So in 2021, I did a little bit of swimming just a few dips, but but not really much because with chronic fatigue, or at least on my long recovery journey. It’s about starting a very small amount of physical exertion in a particular sport, and then just building up incredibly slowly and really regularly and it’s just been impossible with the pandemic. And I’ve missed it so much. You know, going down to the lido was a really massive part of my life for sort of six or so years and I haven’t had it for three years. But I have told myself and a new year’s resolutions are a bit blah! And a bit blurgh! I don’t really do New Year’s resolutions, but I like to think I’ve been telling myself that this year as well as many other things. It’s going to be a year where I start swimming again and just work out the booking systems in the swimming pools in the indoor one as well. So that I can train my body and get back to the water because I miss it so much. I feel like there’s been like a part a little part of me missing for three years. So that’s a very long answer, but I still haven’t quite answered your question my dream swim. I mean, there are so many places. I want to just go back to so that I can swim again. But I think my dream swim would be this amazing massive reservoir called the Lac de Sainte-Croix. Do you know that, have you heard of that Jade?
Jade Hanley
I haven’t, tell me about it!
Kerry Andrew
The Lac de Sainte-Croix is down in the south east part of France. In the Var region of Provence. It’s like maybe an hour or an hour and a half drive up from Marseille and it’s this massive reservoir, you know they drowned a village and made this reservoir. I don’t know when in the middle of the 20th century probably. And it’s absolutely beautiful. Now, you know, you wouldn’t know that it was a reservoir. If you didn’t see that sort of big dam at the end because it’s absolutely huge. It’s sort of 20 miles round or something. The water is this amazing well Jade colour actually so beautiful blue green. There are a lot of really massive mountains at one end. There’s these amazing gorges at both ends with this huge tall limestone cliff and then the beaches are just lots of little bits where you can park and sort of scrabble down and lots of kind of pebbly beaches. And there’s a particular place called La Grande Gorge, the big gorge where you park Yeah, and you scramble down some, some stone and on this path and then there’s just this big flat rock shelf and a bit of gorge and you can just swim there and it’s just so ridiculously beautiful. It’s just the absolute best the temperature when we’ve been there, it’s always like a bath you know, which is not what I’m normally used to. I used to cold swimming but you know, it’s like 20 to 23 degrees, and it’s just completely blissful. And I feel so privileged that I’ve had a chance to go there on holiday and that was just like my it’s my beacon in front of me that if I just yeah work on swimming here at home indoors, and outdoors. Eventually when it’s a bit warmer for my slightly ill body then we’re gonna get a train and get down to that bit of France so I can swim there again.
Jade Hanley
Oh, wow. I think if you hadn’t said that you’d already been there. I don’t know that I would have believed that that was a place that sounded so wonderful. Definitely going to put that on my list too I think.
Kerry Andrew
It’s just gorgeous. You know, we found it because we’re a big fan of Daniel Starts Wild Swimming Guides and we’ve used them a lot in this country and in France and Spain and Italy. I think that’s just how we holidayed for a long time. We just buy another one of those books and then just work out where the best place was where we could swim the most. So yeah, so total credit to Daniel Starts books for introducing us to that part of the world. But yeah, I have a lot of special memories there. For sure.
Jade Hanley
It does sound wonderful. Thank you very much for joining me on the podcast.
Kerry Andrew
My pleasure. It’s so nice to just talk about swimming and water. Honestly, a lot of people you know, I know I haven’t swum, swum for a while but I have a few friends who really get it and then a lot of people you know don’t quite understand the cold. The cold water is not quite for everyone is it but so it’s really nice just to talk to someone who really gets it.
Jade Hanley
Yeah, I hear you that’s the main reason I started the podcasts that I speak to other people about swimming
Thank you to Kerry for joining me on this episode. SKIN is available in paperback and hardback now.
Thank you too for listening. And as always, happy swimming!
Podcast: Play in new window
Subscribe: RSS