Episode transcript
Jade Hanley
Welcome back to Wild Swim Podcast.
In this episode I’m speaking to Alex Vodden. Alice recently completed a master’s in Public Health at the University of Cambridge, and now works for the NHS in London as an operational manager for adult mental health. She regularly enjoys a morning swim at Parliament Hill laid out in northwest London, and is currently training for the 13 kilometre Thames marathon swim this August. – Very best of luck with that, Alice!
She’s really interested in the potential role which cold and open water swimming could play in improving health at a population level, while also supporting the NHS by placing an increased focus on the prevention of ill health.
I spoke with Alice last year, at which point she was still completing her Masters.
Like many swimmers I’ve read about the health benefits of outdoor swimming. And I know that my swim friends talk about the many ways that swimming helps them. So I was really interested to find out how this might apply on a wider level and what might be needed to achieve it.
Hi, Alice, welcome to Wild Swim Podcast.
Alice
Hello. It’s great to be here. Thank you for inviting me to join.
Jade Hanley
So let’s start by you telling me how you got started with outdoor swimming?
Alice
Yeah, definitely. So I used to, I sort of grew up in a combination of England, Australia, and Switzerland. So…
Jade Hanley
Oh wow!
Alice
I’ve always sort of had this sort of love for the outdoors. And the swimming particularly. And I think sort of outdoor swimming specifically it was so I sort of did quite a bit of rowing when I was younger and then sort of carried that on throughout university and then I got injured at a point and sort of everything I’d done up until then had sort of been rowing. And then I didn’t really know what to do. And loads of people have told me about how great open water swimming is all the benefits of it. Particularly in terms of from injury recovery perspective. So I thought I’d give it a go. So that was mainly in Switzerland when I was about 14 that I started and ever since then, I just loved it. And I’ve kind of just continued really so now obviously at university in the UK, and I jump into into lakes and rivers and any way I can really as often as possible.
Jade Hanley
Oh brilliant. And is there any difference between swimming in the UK and swimming in Switzerland?
Alice
Swimming in Switzerland is a very scenic from what I’ve experienced. There’s a lot of lakes and a lot of mountains, which makes for very, very pretty swimming environments. It’s also colder in Switzerland, which has been an interesting experience to try and see how sort of the open water swimming experience more generally it’s varies between cold water swimming and sort of swimming in more comfortable temperatures and how the body reacts to that. So that was really interesting as well. But yeah, it’s slightly warmer here. And especially now with the sun coming out
Jade Hanley
So you’re currently studying for a Masters in Public Health at the University of Cambridge. So tell me a bit more about that. And what it’s got to do with swimming?
Alice
Yeah. So I it’s a one year course. And it started in September 2020 and it finishes in sort of August this year. So it’s a one year Masters in public health. And it’s a really, really broad Masters. So it kind of covers everything from the more sort of stat side so epidemiology and biostatistics to sort of more clinical areas, such as infectious disease, diseases and chronic diseases. And then there’s kind of the more sort of public health side. So, health policy, health promotion, health management, health economics, so it’s really broad and which is great. And it gives kind of all the students a chance to investigate all different aspects of public health and see how they might kind of how we see our careers fitting into potentially one of those different aspects.
So in terms of how that relates to open water swimming, so I think over the course of the Masters, I’ve sort of come to appreciate and recognise the importance of health kind of promotion. And sort of that really started initially I did some research on the Park Run. Just in case people don’t know Park Run, it was kind of established a few years ago now and essentially involves different communities hosting a run once a weekend and it’s totally free. I think it’s about five kilometres and it’s anyone is kind of able to go and participate and it’s it’s sort of arguably been one of the most successful physical activity public health interventions that have that’s kind of happened over the past few years. So I think a combination of that research, which I did, and my master’s and then the third thing was COVID, obviously, and open water swimming totally took off during COVID over the past year. So I think it was a combination of those three factors really which where I came to sort of piece together, public health and open water swimming. And it is really interesting. I’ve sort of, I mean, there’s lots of discussion around at the moment around the sort of health benefits of open water swimming and sort of swimming more generally, which is great, but what is sort of, typically not spoken about quite as much is how that sort of potential benefit that this could have at the population level. I think that’s a really, really interesting area, how the sport itself as a form of physical activity, through its accessibility and sort of gaining momentum at the same time now, how that could really have a really potentially a big public health impact.
Jade Hanley
What do you mean when you talk about it on a population level?
Alice
So I think at the moment, a lot of what’s being spoken about in terms of sort of thinking about the benefits of open water swimming, it’s very much at an individual level, so kind of all the benefits such as improved sleep, boosted immune system, and mental health benefits as well. They’re kind of all very much at an individual level. And so I’m now sort of thinking about how can we bring the benefits at at sort of a wider level, so kind of talking about societies and communities and, and really sort of populations rather than individuals. So by that, we mean maybe looking at the wider benefits of swimming, so not necessarily just those specifically focusing on individuals, but for example, the benefits such as community engagement, interaction with the natural environment, and and those sorts of things which are very much sort of in the public health world, but not spoken about necessarily quite as much.
Jade Hanley
You mentioned a few there, but what are the benefits of outdoor swimming for public health?
Alice
So I think I mean, so Swim England sort of highlights there’s sort of six main health benefits. So better sleep, better circulation, increased happiness or kind of improved mental health, increase metabolism, boosted immune system, or better some sort of physical sort of skin as well. So they’re the kind of six which Swim England highlight, but as I said previously, they’re kind of very much focused on individual. So focusing more on the kind of wider level there is that community engagement and kind of social interaction that is really seen as a really important aspect of public health and sort of even throughout COVID we’ve seen examples of how that’s really worked. So sort of NHS workers really working with communities to kind of increase vaccine uptake, for example. So that whole idea around community engagement is something which I really think open water swimming kind of facilitates lots of people sort of going swimming in various locations, but typically all within a region. So I think that’s kind of one of the major ones.
And then another one is kind of, as I mentioned, interaction with the natural environment, and I think this is particularly not spoken about quite as much, but there’s been some really interesting research recently around the positive impacts of individuals interacting with their natural environment, and how that fosters a sort of an appreciation of sort of the surrounding area. And, and that’s kind of the research was sort of being conducted around not just sort of rivers and lakes but also forests and parks and things as well. So I think I think that’s a really, really interesting area.
Jade Hanley
Yeah, it’s really interesting to hear about that as well, because I think a lot of the things that I’ve seen have been about some of the things that you mentioned there about mental health and and those kinds of benefits, but less on the sort of wider benefit to the environment, to local areas. Are those benefits, things that you’ve seen happening?
Alice
I think it’s obviously very dependent on on the region and the kind of group of people and I guess the set the level of engagement in open water swimming within a particular region. But I know that sort of when I go swimming, there’s always lots of people that always message and say, oh, let’s all go together. So I think that really helps from the sort of social aspect as well. And this whole idea of incorporating physical activity into sort of community engagement area as well. So I think that is something which I’ve witnessed in terms of on looking at the more natural environment side, there’s a lot going on at the moment about advocacy for putting reasonable putting more resources into ensuring that the quality of the water in the rivers and lakes is kind of at a high enough level. So that people are sort of safe to swim in. And that’s something which Swim England are doing a lot of work around at the moment. And I think that whole kind of playing that is something that everyone sort of really experiences just firsthand, but also, when you engage in open water swimming in a community, you do notice that this is something which often comes up that people talk about.
Jade Hanley
And I guess the other side of that is what are the challenges or barriers that you see?
Alice
I think unfortunately, there’s quite a lot! So in terms of, I think something really important to kind of point out is that there’s a lot of dangers which come with open water swimming, more so than swimming in a pool, for example. So I think there’s a lot around education of the dangers. So whether that be a river flow or the cold water itself, or tides, if you’re in sea, all of that kind of thing. I think to make sort of open water swimming really take off in a safe and sort of accessible way it there really needs to be a more of an appreciation of the hazards of the environment which which you’re going into in terms of sort of other challenges, I think is open water I think swimming but also open water swimming typically lacks kind of a lot of think there’s miss it neat with the river there really needs to be a lot of investment and financial backing. In order for this sort of open water swimming to be facilitated in terms of the human resources there needs to be sort of coaches, people to facilitate like open water swimming lessons. I know there’s quite a few open water swimming clubs, particularly on the coasts, and that all requires quite large human resources input. I think there’s kind of there’s a lot really! Yeah, unfortunately, there’s also kind of from the water going back to what I was saying earlier around from the sort of environment side and this is an area that kind of a focus area at the moment in ensuring that water quality is adequate for and sort of safe to enable people to swim in open water. And I think that really is I mean, I think open water swimming is never really going to be an effective public health intervention unless it’s safe. So I think that there’s really the safety of swimmers should always be the top priority. And I think that really an area that needs quite quite a bit more work and as I said is getting gaining more traction and there is an increasing appreciation of the importance of water quality, and ensuring that is sustained over time, but I think it’s definitely something which will require continued sort of focus and investment in as well.
Jade Hanley
It’s definitely something that I’ve seen more stories in the kind of mainstream media in the last probably the last couple of years about things like the amount of pollutants that are put into rivers, for example, and the impact that that can have. So I guess that’s that’s sort of the starting point on where we are now. And then I think getting that information at the moment is really difficult as a swimmer so you don’t know if it’s safe and then often a lot of places a lot of landowners put up signs that just say outright no swimming. People do swim there, but there’s very little information about you know what the risks might be like a river for example, not swimming after heavy rainfall. When that can affect the quality and things.
Alice
Yeah, definitely. I’d say that sort of more widely, actually. Communication to swimmers and sort of the availability of information about open water swimming more generally. So not specifically just about the environments that people are swimming in and the sort of associated quality of the waters within that region. But also, even from kind of a personal experience on how on how to even join the clubs, how to practice open water, swimming safely, the equipment you need, and then there is some kind of really great Outdoor Swimmer magazine, for example, they do some really fantastic blogs, and kind of general information really about a lot of those aspects that I just mentioned. But I think that there is quite a bit to be done around ensuring that sort of across all generations and people within all different aspects of society are able to access this information. Again, sort of at a wider level, open water swimming has really huge potential to reduce health inequalities through primarily it’s sort of accessibility both physically and financially. But I think without ensuring that those resources are accessible to really everyone. There does a risk to sort of it’s possible that existing sort of disparities within health are kind of further exacerbated. So I think in general communication around swimming resources and and the in those kinds of areas, and sort of water quality, as you were mentioning is really important.
Jade Hanley
I wanted to ask so one of the things I think some more seasoned swimmers might have noticed since COVID especially, is that some places are kind of becoming quite busy with people who maybe aren’t coming with thing being prepared for swimming or having that understanding of the environment and the places that they are swimming and kind of causing tensions between maybe local areas. So one of the places that I swim in the past, there is quite a bit of tension that’s often targeted at swimmers when it tends to be the less experienced swimmers that that are causing tensions to be there. So I wondered what your thoughts were around that how we can guess open it up to everyone and make it more accessible in a way that doesn’t then result in 1000s of people flocking to really small lakes and overcrowding them?
Alice
Yeah, definitely. I think. I think there’s quite a lot of potential answers to that and I definitely don’t think there’s sort of a one line solution to that problem unfortunately. I think it’s I think largely it Swim England and in Public Health England do have quite a bit of information on open water swimming, but I think in terms of how, how accessible that is to people. I think that’s probably something which is perhaps not particularly easy for so people that may maybe don’t have laptop or access to internet. I think that is probably one of the main the main issues. So I think diversifying the communication sort of mediums through which open water swimming resources are available to people is something that could potentially help in addressing the problem. So whether that be through sort of thinking about the role of newspapers and magazines that you can buy all sorts of enhancing the or improving the information which is accessible online, is sort of one way in which that can be through which that sort of issue can be tackled.
In addition to the role of those sort of really big organisations. I think there’s also a role for I think if individuals were to be directed to open water swimming, so I think when I was actually speaking to you earlier I was speaking a little bit about social prescribing, and how the potential that open water swimming could have as a social prescribing activity. And so I think just to sort of so social prescribing is kind of when individuals go to a doctor and the doctor actually rather than prescribing a medication, they prescribe an alternative activity. So that activity could be a physical activity, or it could be it could be like an art class or a music class, but something within the community and the idea is that it’s kind of fostering this idea of Preventative Medicine, and that really, maybe the answer isn’t actual medication all the time. But it is kind of engaging with the community and sort of participating in a specific activity. So I think in that case, I mean, this is something which kind of hasn’t, in the case of open water swimming hasn’t kind of gained a lot of traction up until now. But as a kind of, I guess social prescribing in itself is gaining lots more traction and kind of outlined in the NHS long term plan. There’s lots of plans and investment in resources over the next few years to kind of facilitate this social prescribing and social prescribing activities.
And so I think in this case, it really is the role of the facilitators. So the people that are directing individuals to open water swimming, I think it’s there is quite a lot of their responsibility to notify people of the kind of dangers of sport and you know how to engage in open water swimming in a safe and kind of appropriate way. So I think in that case, it’s kind of the people so that’s just an example of a time when people might be directed to to an open water swimming class. And I think that is something which is an in that case, the responsibility of the people that are directing the individuals to open water swimming. And, yeah, similarly, I think kind of looking at sort of open water swimming coaches. I think they also kind of potentially can play a role in helping facilitate this kind of safe and appropriate environment for everyone to kind of engage in activity.
Jade Hanley
I was listening to either thinking, I really wish that my doctor would prescribe open water swimming for me, then I’d have an excuse to do it more!
Alice
Recently, a doctor prescribed a paddleboarding session which I thought was amazing. It’s something which is really really exciting and I mean obviously the NHS is, now more than ever before there’s increasing strain on the NHS and resources and I think social prescribing has really potentially a huge role in in contributing to this whole idea around prevention and through community engagement and physical activity but also through sort of the arts as well. And I think having open water swimming, as the kind of really prominent activity within this space is something which is really exciting and could have kind of such a huge public health potential.
Jade Hanley
One of the things I wanted to ask based on what you were saying before, a lot of open water swimming groups at the moment asked kind of self organised they’re not, while there are sort of organised sessions and there is that more formal way a lot of people meet online through Facebook groups and things like that. And yes, I wondered how that idea of encouraging more people can fit where those communities are self organised, and maybe don’t have that kind of formal thing? There’s not that sort of insurance and some of those legal or regulatory type things in place.
Alice
I think. I think that’s a really interesting question and I think it is difficult because things like Facebook and other forms of social media are not what a lot of people like not everyone uses them. And for some people, they’re just totally not not an option and not accessible. However, I do think they are effective in their in the way through which they sort of, they do foster this kind of social community engagement idea and provide a platform which people can sort of discuss and organise sort of open water swimming sessions and things like that. I think I think is really kind of a like a multidisciplinary solution which is required. So I think there is a there is kind of a responsibility for Swim England and Public Health England to help make these resources available to people by diversifying the ways through which they sort of present their resources. Yeah, I mean, it really is quite difficult. And, and obviously word of mouth only goes so far. But I think that is one of the biggest challenges enabling the kind of sport itself to be really accessible to anyone that wants to participate in it. And I think that’s something which we, as the kind of sport continues to grow, we really need to keep in mind and and think about how we can kind of address that challenge.
Jade Hanley
Interesting. And what will the outcome of your course be? What What’s your kind of tea? Are you doing a dissertation? Is there a kind of final project?
Alice
Yeah, so I’m currently, I’m currently revising for exams, but I am also trying to write a dissertation. And I’m writing it on, sort of generally health inequalities in England. So I’m hoping that that sort of through the process of of investigating the different trends in health inequalities over the past few years, as well as the population groups that are most affected, disproportionately affected by health inequalities and I guess sort of conditions as well which are being most kind of whether there are the most inequalities. I’m hoping that by gaining a more enhanced sort of understanding of those areas that I’m going to be able to hopefully utilise some of that knowledge that I’ve gained. And I’m looking at how we can kind of help sort of make open water swimming more accessible to people, particularly disadvantaged groups. But I guess mainly through this sort of idea around social prescribing. And obviously, the kind of NHS itself is amazingly placed to, you know, as a free service accessible to people. I think that’s that’s really interesting starting point and in terms of looking at the potential as a sport to reduce health inequalities, and sort of have a wider a wider public health benefit as well. So I’m hoping to work with sort of the people key people championing championing the people more swimming world. And I’ve been speaking with some people from Swim England as well as to how we can hopefully make this happen.
Jade Hanley
Oh, brilliant. Good luck with it!
Alice
Thank you very much, I might need it!
Jade Hanley
And I end the podcast by asking if you have a dream swim at all, whether it’s a kind of location or just an idea of a swim, although I have to say that swimming in Switzerland sounded pretty idyllic to me before.
Alice
Yeah, no, it’s great. I think I mean, I would absolutely love to swim the Channel. But that would be sort of ultimate dream, but I think I need to do a bit more training before that. And maybe after I finish my exams and thesis as well. But yeah, I think that there’s definitely many amazing people that have already done that, that I totally look up to, and I think it’s just such an amazing achievement. So yeah, that will be the sort of the dream one day
Jade Hanley
Good luck with that as well. Thank you. Thank you for joining me on the podcast.
Alice
No problem. It’s been a pleasure. Thank you very much for listening to me speak.
Jade Hanley
Thank you so much to Alice for joining me on the podcast and for your patience with this episode. And thank you as well for listening. And as always, Happy swimming.
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